Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History of education in Wales (1701–1870)/archive1

History of education in Wales (1701–1870)

Featured article candidates/History of education in Wales (1701–1870)/archive1

Nominator(s): Llewee (talk) 13:50, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This article should be interesting whether you are from Wales or not. It tells the story of education in a society where there was no compulsion to send children to school but a real hunger for knowledge. It also includes recent research into one of the most well-known topics in Welsh history; the Welsh Not.

This is the third article I have nominated as an FAC; both previous articles are now FA's (though one took two nominations). This one has been through GA (see) and Peer (see) reviews. Thank you to anyone who comments, I will respond as quickly as possible.--Llewee (talk) 13:50, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Several of the captions are overly detailed - see WP:CAP

File:Sketty_School_1854,_Captain_Lennox_(3989132303).jpg: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:The_Bristol_company_copper_works,_near_Swansea.jpeg, File:Our_schoolchildren_(4011829352).jpg, File:Calvanistic_Methodist_College,_Trevecca.jpeg

File:Wales_(8249902781).jpg: under US law, reproduction of a 2D work does not garner a new copyright
Changed copyright tags--Llewee (talk) 22:18, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
File:Abergavenny_boys_national_school_(3374847).jpg needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:15, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Added--Llewee (talk) 22:18, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Tim riley

I peer reviewed the article and was impressed. It seemed to me then and seems to me now to be of FA quality. Of course (apologies!) I missed a few things at PR that I'm going to carp about here, but only four:

"wrote in 1859 that miners's children rarely participated" – "miners's" needs to lose the second "s"
done--Llewee (talk) 18:29, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"low attendance, untrained teacher, insufficient school provision" – "teacher" should be plural, presumably.
ditto--Llewee (talk) 18:29, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"a lack week-day schooling in the area" – two things here. First, you want "of" after "lack" and secondly, neither the OED nor Chambers hyphenates "weekday"
done both--Llewee (talk) 18:29, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Those are my only quibbles and I am happy to support the promotion of this admirable article to FA. It seems to me to meet all the criteria. Tim riley talk 13:16, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oh drat! I misread my scribbled notes and omitted one other quibble: "an emotive description of the practise" should have "practice" for the noun. Doesn't alter my support, I hardly need say. Tim riley talk 13:40, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Tim, I have also corrected the additional issue.--Llewee (talk) 18:29, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

SC

Comments to follow follow in a day or so. - SchroCat (talk) 14:54, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from MSincccc

Comments to follow soon. MSincccc (talk) 19:03, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
- Being a peasant was and is quite a common occupation. It could be delinked in the lead.
I would prefer to keep the link as I think a lot of people would assume that "peasant" is just a derogatory term for a poor person.--Llewee (talk) 20:07, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- State funding was introduced to schools from 1833; which was later followed by school inspections and teacher training. A comma rather than a semi-colon should be used after "1833".
done--Llewee (talk) 20:07, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- Link Welsh language?
linked both languages--Llewee (talk) 20:07, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Background
- Several grammar schools were established in Wales in the 16th and 17th centuries;[1] which catered to boys of "the middling sort". The semicolon is incorrect because the second clause is not an independent sentence. Hence, a comma should be used in its place.
done--Llewee (talk) 20:15, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- and clergyman Thomas Gouge "the" before "clergyman" to avoid a false title. They should be avoided if possible.
done--Llewee (talk) 20:15, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
*Overcrowded, unsanitary towns developed where the poorest could find little assistance. Replace the comma with an "and".

In British English, the Oxford comma is typically omitted in simple lists, as in "overcrowded and unsanitary towns." However, it is used to prevent ambiguity in complex lists. Therefore, in this sentence, the comma is unnecessary.
That's not an Oxford comma and the sentence is grammatically correct with it there. - SchroCat (talk) 19:43, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Llewee This rounds off my first round of suggestions. Looking forward to your response. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 19:14, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
18th century schooling
They might organise apprenticeships and supervision after boys had left school. This sentence could be improved upon.

I'm not whether you are referring to grammar changes or content.--Llewee (talk) 20:45, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Link Carmarthenshire?

done--Llewee (talk) 20:45, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Though learning Latin was still an important part of preparing to enter professions, especially the clergy. This sentence could be rephrased:
Learning Latin was still an important part of preparing to enter professions, especially the clergy. MSincccc (talk) 10:42, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'd prefer to keep "though" to emphasise the contrast between this point and the sentence before it.--Llewee (talk) 20:45, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy
While people in the 18th century saw them as a response to religious concerns;[ The phrase "in the 18th century" can be omitted from this sentence as it is understood from the previous sentence that it refers to the people of that generation.

I'm not keen on this suggestion, including the time period in both clauses makes clear the distinction, if no time was given in the first clause the whole sentence would seem to be referring to the time given in the second clause.--Llewee (talk) 20:56, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

became a theme of 19th century Welsh nationalism. This phrase can be rephrased as :became a theme of Welsh nationalism in the 19th century so as to avoid false titles. I will not insist upon it, but it will be preferable to do so.

done--Llewee (talk) 21:01, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

] A similar story was that of Mary Jones; a teenaged girl who was said to have walked 25 miles in 1800 to get her own copy of the Bible from Charles, inspiring the creation of the British and Foreign School Society.

That's a slight mix-up. Mary Jones' story did inspire something significant, but it was the British and Foreign Bible Society (BFBS), not the British and Foreign School Society. In 1800, 15-year-old Mary Jones walked about 25 miles to buy a Welsh Bible from Reverend Thomas Charles. Her determination highlighted the lack of affordable Bibles, leading to the founding of the BFBS in 1804 to make Bibles more accessible worldwide.

The British and Foreign School Society, on the other hand, was focused on education and was founded in 1808, largely influenced by the work of Joseph Lancaster.
Yes, that was a mistake on my part, corrected.--Llewee (talk) 21:14, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The best-selling novel How Green Was My Valley (1939)... Could the author's name be also mentioned here?

Llewee This concludes my list of suggestions for the article's FAC nomination. It was an interesting read and I look forward to your response to my suggestions. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 18:06, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have added his name. Thank you for the comments, MSincccc, sorry for the delay responding I have been busy this week.--Llewee (talk) 22:38, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Why the cut-off in 1870? I assume from the next article in the series, that you see Elementary Education Act 1870 as a key dividing line. However, this is not mentioned in the lead of this article, and makes 1870 seems rather arbitrary, given how many of the sources cover the entire Victorian era. - hahnch e n 15:56, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think 1870 is a useful dividing line even if it was not as important as people sometimes think. It's also a good breaking point for Wales-specific reasons as the first welsh university college was established in 1872 and the government began to implement different education policies in Wales to England from the 1880s. I have added a comment about the education act to the legacy section and a mention to the intro--Llewee (talk) 23:07, 2 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]